“WE NEED to face up to the fact that if our approach is just protest and then compliance, we will keep complying while they take away every single right we’ve got.”

Fire Brigades Union general secretary Matt Wrack is insistent that trade unions cannot put their faith in the Tories’ anti-strike Bill being defeated, or overturned by a future Labour government.

They need a plan for how to derail it in practice. As we meet at the start of the May Day weekend, the FBU has just written to the Scottish and Welsh governments asking for meetings on building “a united campaign of resistance” against the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, which both devolved administrations have condemned.

The union has also called for an emergency TUC Congress to plan mass “non-co-operation and non-compliance” with the authoritarian law, which would force unions to instruct members to cross their own picket lines, put any worker who refuses at risk of summary dismissal and allow companies and the public to sue unions for losses alleged to be linked to strike action.

The Bill has just taken a mauling in the House of Lords, but that won’t stop it. “With the level of parliamentary majority they’ve got, the Tories will return to it. Equally, putting obstacles in its way is good, to delay it, because we’re getting closer and closer to a general election. But I still think they’ll push it through.”

The FBU’s call for non-compliance has already “pushed the debate along,” Wrack reckons: “When we first raised this point at the TUC, it was pretty much dismissed, and then within a week the First Minister of Scotland says there will not be any work orders [instructing named employees to work through a strike] from the Scottish government under any circumstances.

“And that I think will give confidence to others — in the unions, in politics, in the leadership of particular areas of public services — not to co-operate with this legislation.

“We’re not saying that individual unions need to announce that they’re going to break the law. We’re saying there should be a debate about how we resist it.”

Trade unionists speak of the way the Industrial Relations Act was derailed in the 1970s. But is the union movement in a position to achieve that now?

“We need to be realistic. We’ve had setbacks, the most obvious being the decline in trade union membership, in the proportion of the workforce which is unionised, and in the level of workplace trade union organisation through shop stewards or the equivalent.

“We are not where we were in the 1970s or ’80s and while we’ve seen a rise in the historically low level of strikes in the past year, together with raised public awareness which is very welcome, even this level of strikes is nothing like what we would have had 30 years ago.

“One of our jobs is to build the networks, build the workplace organisation and the solidarity.”

Does he worry that settlements in certain sectors, including the fire and rescue service, could see the strike wave lose momentum?

“We had a bit of soul-searching on our executive on that point. On the day of our negotiations we had a very decisive strike mandate in our pocket. And we had members lobbying the pay talks from all over the country.

“At the end of a long day the employers provided a new position, and as it was significantly different we felt we needed to consult members, and as the feedback was very positive we recommended acceptance.

“I don’t think our members feel they are backing away from strikes. The view is we are taking advantage of a situation, and we need to use this to build the organisation, encourage people to become workplace reps. This is not the end of the line on pay. We start straight away in terms of pay for next year.”

Organising to defeat anti-union laws would, of course, mean building union activity even if current disputes are settled.

And if the Scottish and Welsh administrations can be made part of that resistance, does that also put pressure on the Labour Party at the British level?

“Yes, absolutely. We’ve got quite a decent commitment from Labour on the two most recent bits of legislation, the minimum service levels and the 2016 Act” (which imposed arbitrary ballot thresholds unions have to beat for strike votes to count). “They’ve said they’ll repeal them within 100 days. Our job is to make sure that pledge is honoured.

“The closer we get to a general election, the more the media will target that element of Labour policy, saying we’ll go back to the 1970s, and we’ve got to put some backbone into Labour to resist that.”

Labour’s manifesto hasn’t been written and Wrack says he is not confident it will be as strong on workers’ rights as the 2019 one, which was “really groundbreaking.” But he wants to ensure Labour is under pressure not just to repeal the latest Tory laws but to improve union rights in other areas, such as by legalising online balloting for strikes.

Working out how to beat the law in practice would also put the unions in a better place should a Labour government prove a disappointment.

“I’m not convinced that we would see a complete turnaround on questions like investment in public services under Labour.

“I hope we’ll see an easing up on pay, and on the level of cuts, but I’ve not seen clear commitments yet that suggest the tide will turn. Part of the job for us is to raise the pressure for different policies as Labour is entering its manifesto process — and to prepare for battles under a Labour government.”

Why is Labour so timid when the anger in communities is so palpable, and the labour movement more militant than for many years?

“We have to face up to the fact that in the Labour Party, the left has suffered a very major defeat. Glossing over that doesn’t help. My own view is there has not been sufficient discussion on why that happened — but it was a very decisive defeat.

“And the Keir Starmer leadership of the Labour Party is very determined to see through its agenda, part of which is to ensure the left doesn’t return to any level of influence. That’s what has led to the witch hunts, the expulsions, the closing down of CLPs, the blocks on candidates for local government and Parliament, the attacks on party democracy, with, frankly, very little serious opposition.

“That has led activists to move onto another plain — a lot of people think you can’t win the battles in the Labour Party, but you can in the industrial sphere, so we’ve seen a shift to an industrial focus.

“Clearly you need both, political and industrial struggle and organisation. And as we get closer to a Labour government, many of those challenges will be thrown into sharp relief. There will be expectations of a Labour government.

“Whether the Labour leadership likes it or not, if the Tories are defeated in a general election, there will be an expectation by millions of people that things will change, that living standards will get better, that public services will get better.

“If they don’t deliver on that, there are two options for the left — resistance, or demoralisation which opens the way to defeat at the following election.”

But is Labour likely to turn things around? Should the anti-strike Bill be seen as the panicked response by the Tories to the current strike wave, or as part of a much wider authoritarian trend?

“A bit of both. Originally the Bill was an attack on transport workers but it has spread. I think the fire service was a driver in that — we’re aware that fire brigade employers had made detailed plans about how to deal with strikes, but as in 2022 strike ballots became imminent, they realised their plans were falling apart.

“I presume that was flagged up in political structures, and new legislation emerged — so the strike wave was a factor in it.

“But beyond that, there are clearly policy makers pushing an authoritarian approach — clamping down on rights, clamping down on democracy, the right to protest, the right to vote.”

Because given a long-term trend towards lower living standards, the ruling class has a choice between changing the system and shutting us up?

“Yes, you’ve got this long-term stagnant economy across much of the world.

“I don’t think they have got the answers. So there are these bids to make unions and protest totally ineffective, which is partly opportunistic, and partly learned from the right in America — where you see the attempts to stop working-class people, black people, young people from voting.

“It’s because they see the risk of protest, and I think they see the young as a threat too — in terms of lack of housing opportunities, secure jobs, student debt, which turn young people against them.”

The labour movement needs to step up and defend those rights. “But not just for an abstract reason. We need to be able to fight for pay and decent conditions, and for jobs.

“There is now a mood of resistance. The last year has demonstrated that very clearly. We now need to set our sights a bit higher — beyond the immediate challenge towards building a movement for real change.”